For 25-man raids our current Kara System isn't going to work. For a while we thought it might, but with so many people needing loot and so relatively few items dropping, it isn't the fairest of systems. We considered the option of a looting council for a while, but as that can be rather subjective and can result in nasty arguments during a raid, we decided to pass on that as well. Instead, we've looked into the different DKP systems that are available and it looks like the EPGP system does pretty much all that we're looking for.
Here follows an introduction into the system for those of you that are interested in how you will be getting your loot:
EPGP stands for: Effort Points, Gear Points
In one sentence: EPGP computes your priority of loot (PR) as the quotient of your effort to the gear received. Effort Points (EP) quantify the effort each member put towards the (common) guild goals and Gear Points (GP) quantify what each member got back in return. Put in a mathematical equation PR = EP/GP. EPGP is by definition self balanced since priority (and hence chance to receive loot) is directly proportional to the effort you put and inversely proportional to the rewards you got. EP can be awarded through a multiple activities:
Being on time for raids Killing bosses Wiping on new boss tries Being present until the end of raid Being extraordinarily helpful to the guild (making pots for a specific fight) Doing some grunt work noone wants to tackle, like updating the guild's website
GP points are accounted though some other set of action:
Receiving loot in a raid Receiving items from the guild bank for high level enchants Getting gold from bank for repairs/mats
It is a flexible system where a guild can choose any of the above points, or even come out with its own point assignment.
EP and GP decay over time. This decay can be set by the guild master (it can also be disabled if it is set to zero). With a decay of N%, after each raid the guild participates in, each member gets her EP and GP reduced by N%. This eliminates EP (DKP) hoarding.
There are two ways to keep people with 0 GP (new members/fresh 70s) from skyrocketing on the PR meters: “Minimum EP” and “base GP”
Minimum EP: For a given a value for Min EPs those people with less than this amount of EP will have a looting priority of PR = 0. For example: 500 EPs are awarded per member per raid and the Decay is set to 10%. If now the Minimum EPs is 1300 then a member needs to be in at least the last 3 raids to be eligible for loot (500+450+405), or in the 4 raids before the last one (450+405+365+329). Since EP measures the effort of each member, having a Minimum EP puts the cut-off at an effort point which will work both for new and old members. An old member that is idle for a long time will loose EPs gradually so she might get lower than Min EPs, making him/her ineligible for loot. A new member starts with EP equal to zero so he needs to attend some raids in order to get his EP above Min EP to be eligible for loot.
Base GP: With Base GP set to X everyone's effective GP becomes X + Individual GP. Effective GP will never go below X. This means that those people with very low EP will also have a very low PR and will need to gain EP in order to rise on the PR meter. The downside of using Base GP: GP decays faster than EP, because on every decay you also lose an extra Base GP%. However, you will never reach 0 GP. Of course, both Min EP and Base GP can be combined.
Problems/Solutions EP hoarding This problem is non-existent in EPGP because of the EP and GP decay. Only temporal EP and GP are accounted. So the later you "use" your PR means that you get less benefit you get out of it. And the sooner you take an item, the faster its value will decay.
New members vs Veterans Because of the decay, new members become equal under the system much faster. EPs decay over time so with a 10% decay per raid, a new member has about the same EP as a veteran after about 15 raids (if they both attended the same raids). The only barrier to entry for new members is reaching Min EPs in order to be eligible for loot.
Members that are geared up vs members that are not Members that are geared up, and thus will pass on many items, will end up with the highest PR possible. This means that they will automatically have first priority over a new (and possibly rare) drop. This will satisfy these members. Members that are not geared up will end up getting loot in most raids, which will keep their priority low. So they will still gear up but they will not threaten members that wait for a special piece to drop in order to get their satisfaction as well.
Hard to assign item values and boss kill/tries values Because effort points are decoupled from gear points it is easier to assign "good" values for each category. Guild Masters/Officers can focus on balancing different boss kill/tries, materials farming rewards separately from item values. In the above example nothing would change if each raid was awarding 987 EP and each piece was worth 123 points. Balancing rewards and items is extremely hard; balancing them in isolation is quite simpler.
Each member starts with EP = 0 and GP = 0, and thus their looting priority, PR = 0. Remember that PR=EP/GP, so when EP are awarded the PR factor goes up, and when GP are awarded the PR goes down. Now assume 3 members: Martin, Sini and Dooze. Each attended raid awards 10 EP, each item costs 10 GP, and the decay is set to 10% each raid (these are just example numbers to make the calculations easy). Also assume that Martin attends all raids, while Sini and Dooze attend only 2 out 3.
Here's how EPGP looks like before the start of raiding:
Member
EP (Last Raid+Previous Raids)
GP(Last Raid+Previous Raids)
PR
Martin
0+0
0+0
0
Sini
0+0
0+0
0
Dooze
0+0
0+0
0
All attend the first raid, Martin and Sini receive loot. So All three gain 10 EP for the raid, Martin and Sini also gain 10 GP for the items. This puts their PR factor at 1, while Dooze's PR jumps to 10 since he did not receive loot (to avoid division by 0, GP is set to 1 for this calculation):
Member
EP (Last Raid+Previous Raids)
GP(Last Raid+Previous Raids)
PR
Martin
10+0
10+0
1
Sini
10+0
10+0
1
Dooze
10+0
0+0
10
At the start of the second raid, EP and GP decay by 10% and the standings look as follows:
Member
EP (Last Raid+Previous Raids)
GP(Last Raid+Previous Raids)
PR
Martin
0+9
0+9
1
Sini
0+9
0+9
1
Dooze
0+9
0+0
9
All three participate in the second raid, so the next one in line to receive loot is Dooze (PR=9). A second item drops and both Sini & Martin are interested. They're tied for their PR, so they roll. Sini wins the roll and gets the item. After the raid the satndings are:
Member
EP (Last Raid+Previous Raids)
GP(Last Raid+Previous Raids)
PR
Martin
10+9
0+9
2.1
Sini
10+9
10+9
1
Dooze
10+9
10+0
1.9
At the beginning of the third raid, EP and GP decay again by 10%. Notice here that although Martin and Dooze attended the same raids and received similar valued items, Martin's PR is higher than Dooze's. This is because it has been longer for Martin since he received his item, so its value has decayed longer, raising his PR. The standings table will look as follows:
Member
EP (Last Raid+Previous Raids)
GP(Last Raid+Previous Raids)
PR
Martin
0+17
0+8
2.1
Sini
0+17
0+17
1
Dooze
0+17
0+9
1.9
Now in the next raid only Martin participates and receives a piece of loot, so he gains 10 EP and 10 GP, but his PR factor drops below the one from Dooze since Dooze has only had one item so far:
Member
EP (Last Raid+Previous Raids)
GP(Last Raid+Previous Raids)
PR
Martin
10+17
10+8
1.5
Sini
0+17
0+17
1
Dooze
0+17
0+9
1.9
At he beginning of the next raid all values decay 10% again:
Member
EP (Last Raid+Previous Raids)
GP(Last Raid+Previous Raids)
PR
Martin
0+24
0+16
1.5
Sini
0+15
0+15
1
Dooze
0+15
0+8
1.9
This raid everyone participates again, next in line to receive loot are Dooze and Martin. Both get an item, so the final table looks like this:
Member
EP (Last Raid+Previous Raids)
GP(Last Raid+Previous Raids)
PR
Martin
10+24
10+16
1.3
Sini
10+15
0+15
1.7
Dooze
10+15
10+8
1.4
Up to this point Martin received 3 pieces of loot, Sini and Dooze received 2 pieces. Even though Martin has attended one more raid than the other two, he is now at the bottom of the PR list.
Now to address a couple of questions that a lot of you seem to have. Many people are afraid that this system will greatly benefit those people that raid a lot and leave the ones that do not raid often completely without any items. This is not the case, but before I explain why I'd like to point out that any system used will always benefit the ones that raid often more than those who don't. If you go to many raids, you will see more drops and thus your chances of getting something are always going to be better. I expect that everyone will also agree that someone who puts a lot of effort in attending many raids to get a specific item should get priority on that item over someone who rarely attends if it finally drops. The system we used until now did not cover this option very well at all. Also, our old system did not keep track at all on how many items someone had received in previous raids; being lucky/unlucky was a big factor and cause for some resentment, which needed to be adressed.
Now on to the specifics: Can I wait for my EP to grow before bidding? You can, and if you are after a specific item, you may want to save up on your EP in order to raise your priority so you can get that specific item when it drops. However, keep the decay factor in mind. Generally with Priority, you "use it or lose it". Notice that your GP goes down over time. If everyone goes on the same raids and you win an item one week and someone else wins an item a week later, your priority is higher because your GP started decaying sooner. You won't win more items, but you'll have first shot at the next one.
What about new raiders? Everyone starts with a basic level of GP, this means that new raiders will start out with a relatively low priority value, which will rise relatively fast on the meter and gives them their first item. After that first win, it will take a while before their priority goes up high enough to win a second bid. They will work their way into the system like everyone else.
What happens if I can't raid as much? If you can't raid very often, your EP will stay relatively low due to the decaying factor. However, your Priority factor is calculated after a raid and is not affected by the decay of points as long as your GP are above the base GP (meaning that you should have at least one item "decaying"). Your lower EP will cause bigger swings in your Priority, both up and down as you earn EP and win gear.
Decays
EP
GP (base = 500)
PR
0%
1500
500
3
First raid, no gear, base GP
10%
1350
500
2,7
10% decay before second raid
0%
2850
750
3,8
got 1500 points and item worth 250
10%
2565
675
3,8
before 3rd raid, 10% decay, not attended
10%
2308,5
607,5
3,8
before 4th raid, 10% decay, not attended
Notice that the PR does not change, even though the EP and GP are decaying. Only if you attend so few raids that you can't keep the GP decay above the base level will your priority start changing for the worse.
Decay is set at 7% and occurs after each 25-man raid, base GP is set to 410 Naxxaramas is now no longer part of the EPGP system, for Sartharion and Malygos EP will only be distributed on Sarth 3D and in Malygos when the 6-minute achievement is reached. Looting in these instances is now according to standard looting rules: - Main spec of a main character gets preference over the main-spec of an alt. - Main spec of an alt gets preference over the off-spec of a main. - Off-spec of a main has preference over the off-spec of an alt. For all these rules we apply the 2/4-item limit; if you have received two main spec, or four off-spec items, you automatically pass if someone else is interested in the next item which you would like as well (unless they have received a similar amount of items as well).
EP awards (per member)
Ulduar
Boss
EP 25-man
Iron Concourse
Flame Leviathan
1000
Ignis the Furnace Master
1200
Razoscale
1600
Inside
XT-002 Deconstructor
1600
The Iron Council
1600
Kologarn
1600
Auriaya
1600
Mimiron
3000
Freya
2000
Thorim
2000
Hodir
1600
General Vezax
3000
Optional
Algalon the Observer (hard mode only)
6000
Final boss
Yogg-Saron
5000
Trial of the Crusader (Normal)
Boss
EP 25-man
The Beasts of Northrend
1600
Lord Jaraxxus
1600
Faction Champions
2000
The Val'kyr Twins
2000
Anub'arak
3000
EP for hard modes is double the amount of the standard EP bonus.
Obsidian Sanctum
Boss
EP 25-man
Sartharion, three drakes alive
6000
Eye of Eternity
Boss
EP 25-man
Malygos (under 6 minutes)
6000
Vault of Archavon
Boss
EP 25-man
Emalon the Storm Watcher
1000
Onyxia's Lair
Boss
EP 25-man
Onyxia
2000
Miscellaneous Boss tries Bonus EPs for unsuccessful boss tries will be awarded for bosses that have not been killed yet and only when there is an improvement compared to previous tries, at the Guild Master's or raid leader's discretion. The award will be 25% of the award for a successful kill.
Trial Members New members to the guild that are still on their trial period are awarded 33% of the EPs when participating in a raid. They are not eligible to use their EPs until their trial period has ended and they are full members of UL.
Farming items for the guild Farming items for the guild or otherwise helping the guild outside raiding time. It will be awarded depending on the size of the job and on how much it is needed (dumping random items in the guildvault will not automatically give you lots of EP). This will be awarded as decided by the Guild Master.
Offspec Items In case items are not specifically needed by anyone for their primary spec, but some people need it for reasons other than raiding (healing priest needing spell damage gear, protection warrior needing dps gear, etc), items will go another round of need/greed as per the EPGP standings order. In these cases, GP points awarded for the item will be charged at 10% of the value indicated on the tooltip. This also includes items that are upgrades for a character, but not real class specific upgrades (cloth healing gear for a druid, shaman or pally for example). For weapons, wands, and offhands you can often see two GP values. The amount of GP awarded in that case works as follows:
All wands go for the smallest amount of GP of the two.
All offhands go for the large amount of GP of the two
Hunters take the smaller amount of GP for melee weapons, and the larger amount of GP for ranged weapons (Guns and Bows)
All other classes take the smaller amount of GP for ranged weapons, and the larger amount of GP for melee weapons.
The 90% GP reduction for off-spec weapons follows the same rules.
Core raider standby EP If you have to sit out a raid as a core raider but you are available as a standby replacement, then for each hour that you are online you will receive 5% EP of the raid’s final EP. So for four hours of standby you can earn 20% EP of the raid. During those four hours you are free to do what you like as long as you are ready to replace if the need arises. Every core raider can write down his standby EP claims in a designated forum thread (this will be your own responsibility). Standby EP will added to your total at the end of a raiding week (when the instance resets).
I'll try to explain it again. To keep it simple I'll leave base GP and min EP out of this for now, they are refinements to the system that you don't have to worry about just yet.
The system is broken down into three values and a decaying factor: Effort Points (EP): These are points you get awarded for attending raids and such Gear Points (GP): These represent the value of a piece of loot Priority Rating (PR): this is a number that tells you how high on the list you are to receive loot. If your PR is higher than anyone else, then on the next raid you attend and an item drops that you want, it's yours. The decaying factor is a percentage by which your EP and GP are reduced after each raid, this is a set value and the same for everyone.
Your PR is a simple calculation of the amount of EP you have divided by the amount of GP you have.
So as an example, let's say Stelios and Nick both attend a raid for the first time, both have 0 EP and 0 GP, which effectively puts your PR to 0 as well. The boss (Gruul) is killed and both are awarded 1500 EP and each get an item worth 300 GP. This makes their PR: 1500/300 = 5. Then the decay is applied (say 10%). The numbers for both are then: EP 1500-10% = 1350, GP 300-10% = 270, and PR 1350/270 = 5 (note that PR doesn't change due to the decay)
During this next raid (Gruul again) Nick attends, but Stelios is busy being a father for his kids and can't make it. Nick gets the 1500 EP for killing Gruul, but he also picks up the Tier 4 leggings, which cost 330 GP. That means that after this raid he has 1350+1500=2850 EP and 330+270= 600 GP, which puts his PR at 2850/600=4,75. Now the decaying factor is applied again, which puts Stelios at: EP 1350-10%=1215, GP 270-10% = 243 and thus PR = 5. Nick's points go to 2565/540=4,75.
The next raid is again at Gruul's (we hate him). Nick attends, Stelios is still busy with the kids and has to pass again. Nick gets the 1500 EP, but no item his EP 2565+1500= 4065, GP 540, PR is 7,52. Stelios is still at EP 1215, GP: 243, PR: 5. We decay again 10%. => Nick: EP 3658, GP 486, PR 7,52 - Stelios: EP 1093,5, GP 218,7, PR:5.
We'll do a Void Reaver Run next. A tier 5 shoulder token drops and based on PR Stelios will now have to pass to Nick. He takes it and gets 400 GP. Both get the 2000 EP as well. This results in the following standings: Nick: EP 5658, GP 886, PR: 6,38 - Stelios: EP 3093,5, GP 218,7, PR: 14,14
By now Stelios' PR rating is fairly high and this does not go down. Nick would have to run quite a few raids and not get any loot on those runs to get his PR rating as high as yours. So compared to Nick, Stelios will have a very good chance of getting an item on the next run he attends.
So yes, players who attend more raids will get more items (which is as it should be, as they go more often), but people who don't have that chance will still be able to get their items as well. In this example, Nick had 4 runs and got 3 items and had one run without an item. Stelios attended two runs and got one item but also has a high PR factor that should give him a good chance to get an item on his next run.
The key here is the decaying factor and the resulting lowering of your GP. This allows people that don't raid often to raise their PR factor relatively quikly. If you go inactive for a long period, don't expect to get loot on the first raid that you then attend again, but if your GP had decayed a lot during that time, you should be able to raist the PR fast and get something new within the next one or two runs (if WoW is nice enough to actually drop something that you're interested in).
A final thing to add here. These PR standings don't override loot priority based on class specificity. If an item drops that is very much geared towards hunters, then first the hunters that are in the raid will be checked for their priority rankings, then the secondary classes, such as rogues & warriors. For an idea about loot priority, check this list for Gruul's loot. I'll be adding the loot lists for the other 25-mans in the near future.
